A Real Consultation!

a Dialogue between a male Presbyterian minister and a female elder

This article was first published on AP - the online magazine of the Presbyterian Church in Australia - here

The NSW Presbyterian General Assembly is holding a ‘consultation’ about the issue of women elders. The consultation is itself a bit of a farce – with some regarding it as little more than a tick box exercise in order to prevent us being sued, and others thinking it is a referendum where the members are in effect voting on the issue. Presbyterians do not (or should not) decide doctrine by opinion polls and informal referendum. And we should never let the State dictate to us what our doctrine should be or how we should decide it.

I have written about this situation here – and here – However, I do believe in consultation – real consultation. That is talking with the people who are involved. Listening to what they have to say – especially those who disagree. I find that when you do so face to face the issues are always more complex than the simplistic binary they are often reduced to. Recently I had a meeting with a woman I was really impressed with – we decided that it might be helpful to have an open correspondence –

Here is the first instalment. First her letter and then my reply.

Dear David,

THOUGHTS ON WOMEN ELDERS IN PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH IN NEW SOUTH WALES.

I have been a member of the Presbyterian Church for 50 plus years, being an Elder for 6 years. I have worked in many capacities within the church.

When the proposal to cease having women as elders was voiced at the Assembly of the PCNSW I was very upset. I seemed to me that they were voicing the opinion that: 1. Women were not good enough to be elders and

2. That women were no longer held in the same esteem as men.

I also believed the idea of not electing any more women elders was a step backwards for the church, being an obstacle when encouraging new members and keeping the present ones.

After much prayer and soul searching, I chose to step down from the role of Elder. Originally as a form of protest, but in the pursuing months trying to figure out if I am right or wrong in a biblical sense, on the question of women elders.

I have remained worshipping in my local church, because of the loving supporting church family there and because I have commitments of service to the church community.

Now I am feeling I am not being spiritually fed from the pulpit, so am looking for that spirituality in other ways, i.e. small group Bible study/prayer, whilst remaining at my home Presbyterian church.

It’s been a hard time mentally and spiritually. However, I will continue to wait on God’s enabling and peace.

And my response….

Dear LCG (lady chosen by God – see 2 John 1),

I really enjoyed our discussion the other day. You certainly gave me a lot to think about. And thanks for the e-mail. I will try and be as succinct and clear – although I cannot promise either.

If you don’t mind, I will begin with what for me is the most important issue – your last two paragraphs. Firstly, I can entirely empathise with your feeling that you are not being fed from the pulpit. As a preacher that is something I dread. But quite often in recent years – as I have not been preaching every Sunday, I have had plenty opportunity to worship in different churches. In some it has been a real feast, but far too often the spiritual food on offer has been bland, shallow and boring. The Bible is incredibly relevant, it takes a special skill to make it irrelevant, but somehow that is a skill that the 21^st century church seems to have developed.

I know that we can read God’s Word on our own, or in a group – but as the Shorter Catechism puts it “The Spirit of God makes the reading, but especially the preaching, of the Word, an effectual means of convincing and converting sinners, and of building them up in holiness and comfort, through faith, unto salvation” (SC Q.89). When our preaching is not doing that, those of us who are preachers must ask why? I doubt there is a more important question.

I understand and admire the desire you have to continue to be part of the ‘loving church community’ and ‘the commitments of service’ you have. But in order to have output, you need to have input. I am not saying that you cannot get that through small group study and other means, but it will be hard. As you said it’s good to pray and wait on the Lord. We pray that there will be reformation and renewal in your local church as in all of our churches.

Now, let’s come to the question of women elders. What I most admire about what you say is your desire to reassess in a biblical sense the role of women elders. I have to do the same. We will come back to that.

But let me first of all deal with this objection you had – You thought that the church was saying that 1. Women were not good enough to be elders and 2. That women were no longer held in the same esteem as men. If that is true it would be horrific. I don’t think that this is saying that women are not good enough or not held in the same esteem – although I accept that there are some men who might argue that. For me that is no more true than saying that the 95% of men in the church who are not elders are not good enough, or not held in the same esteem as men.

Part of the problem here is also the understanding of what an elder is. It is not a reward or a promotion – for being good or being a particular sex. It is a particular role reserved for particular people who are called by God to do that role. A role which is, or should be, the role of a servant, not a master.

Your second reason also carries some substance, but I wonder how much? Is it really the case that churches who have male elders only are more subject to decline? That has not been my experience. I remember discussing this with one friendly female critic, who loved our church, but was shocked we had only male elders. We met up and discussed Scripture texts back and forth for over 90 minutes. Anyway, we agreed to part agreeably without having agreed. As she was getting up to leave, I mentioned that I was glad to belong to a church where the slight majority of members were male. She sat down. Shocked. “Why didn’t you say that earlier? That’s your best argument. My church is over 70% female”. I stated that that was not my best argument. It was a practical one – but not one I would use. Because my argument is simply based on Scripture. Because of that I think that the move to male only elders, IF it is done for the right reason, is a move forward, not backwards.

That is the only argument I have. This is not a question of men being better than women. Nor is it a question of what the society will think. It is simply for me a question of what does the Lord say? Which means we are asking what does Scripture say? In this we are to be like the Bereans of Acts 17:11 – Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

So, let’s be Bereans and examine the Scriptures. But can we leave that to another letter? I would like to hear more of your thoughts – and see if we can continue the discussion from here. Please feel free to write me back – not only on women elders, but also your spiritual thirst, hunger and desire to know and experience God better,

Your brother in Christ,

David